Comments on: Bringing Evolution vs. Creationism debate into high school classes a waste of valuable time http://www.msu-underground.com/archives/1127 The Unofficial Student Publication of Missouri State University Tue, 28 Dec 2010 03:38:54 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.8.9 By: AnotherBird http://www.msu-underground.com/archives/1127/comment-page-1#comment-273 Mon, 29 Mar 2010 05:39:22 +0000 http://www.msu-underground.com/?p=1127#comment-273 Irreducibly complex? According to the term then a hydrogen atom is irreducibly complex as any part missing it wouldn’t exist. From that tenet everything in the universe is irreducibly complex including a snow flake or a rain drop. It is a false concept which has no place in science or philosophy. Science evolved (came) out of philosophy as an object way of determining the laws of the natural word. A process to determine how things happened and the establishment of broad rules to explain the natural mechanisms of the world. This include to explain why objects fall, why animals fly, how sound travels, and how organisms grow. Irreducibly complex doesn’t posses any rules to explain how an object can be so complex that it can be reduced to a simpler object. Every object that has been presented as being defined as being irreducibly complex has been reduced to another object that is “irreducibly complex.” Which is a overview of how easy it is to disprove of the entire concept, this doesn’t even address the reason why “irreducibly complex” isn’t a scientific theory.

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By: ARL http://www.msu-underground.com/archives/1127/comment-page-1#comment-271 Tue, 23 Mar 2010 18:49:52 +0000 http://www.msu-underground.com/?p=1127#comment-271 “Joseph” is doing exactly what I talked about above.
*He is trying to use science to prove aspects of his religious beliefs.
*He is either lying (cynical) or mis-informed (ignorant)

No wonder scientists foam at the mouth! When people use statements like “organisms are irreducibly complex,” they hear words that sound a lot like science, but is, in fact, nonsense.

And the Lord blessed all the test tubes and beakers and even the electron microscopes and yea he blessed them all and blessed were they and unto carbon dating he gave his blessing also and the Bakelites and the Tupperwares were glad.

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By: Joseph http://www.msu-underground.com/archives/1127/comment-page-1#comment-267 Sun, 21 Mar 2010 23:13:00 +0000 http://www.msu-underground.com/?p=1127#comment-267 In the article, Evan Pennington wrote:
“As a future teacher, I’m all about prompting our students to think critically …”

Critical thinking in students can be promoted by teaching students Cutting-Edge Science, such as:

– Matter from explosions does not condense to form objects like galaxies.

– Molecules-to-man evolutionism violates the Law of Biogenesis: Life does not come from non-life.

– The specific complexity of genetic information in the genome does not increase spontaneously. Therefore, there is no natural process whereby reptiles can turn into birds, land mammals into whales, or chimpanzees into human beings.

– All organisms are irreducibly complex. Therefore, in order for any kind of organism to exist, all of the essential parts of that organism must be fully functioning from the beginning of its existence.

For more info,
Google:
Creation Doctrine What Does Cutting-Edge Science Teach about Origins?
http://www.kolbecenter.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=83:creation-doctrine&catid=19:creation-doctrine&Itemid=81

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By: Herman Cummings http://www.msu-underground.com/archives/1127/comment-page-1#comment-266 Sun, 21 Mar 2010 17:01:46 +0000 http://www.msu-underground.com/?p=1127#comment-266 There can not be an honest presentation of Genesis when the university (and other institutions) refuses to invite someone that will convey the truth about what is written. The university has not invited anyone that is qualified to speak on the subject of what Genesis is saying to mankind.

Before casting judgment on what you think (or have heard) creationism is about, first get the school to invite the one and only Genesis expert to the facility. Otherwise, all you are hearing is false propaganda. The “Observations of Moses” presentation is 62 minutes, and the audience can ask questions for up to 30 minutes.

Herman Cummings
PO Box 1745
Fortson GA 31808
Ephraim7@aol.com

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By: ARL http://www.msu-underground.com/archives/1127/comment-page-1#comment-265 Sun, 21 Mar 2010 16:34:20 +0000 http://www.msu-underground.com/?p=1127#comment-265 If scientists “foam at the mouth” it is only because people are constantly putting words in their mouths, mis-quoting, mis-categorizing, innocently or cynically using science, or popular notions derived from science, for their own political ends.

Take the comment from Eugugene Windchy above.

He says the field is “in confusion” because there is ongoing debate.

What nonsense! Debate is healthy in science. It means the field is flourishing. It means more data is being collected and the theory is being refined.

Unlike religion, science does not claim a definitive answer for all time. What it claims is theories capable of predicting outcomes. If it finds new data, it needs to adjust theory.

Gould et al. are not proving Darwinian theory “wrong” in total, they are showing clearer and clearer details of how these mechanisms work, how they interact with other factors, and how science works by building upon previous knowledge.

Creationists should stick to faith and scripture for their source material, and leave the fossils and flagelli to the scientists. The scientists are happy enough to keep their hands off the bible.

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By: Anthony http://www.msu-underground.com/archives/1127/comment-page-1#comment-264 Sun, 21 Mar 2010 14:43:51 +0000 http://www.msu-underground.com/?p=1127#comment-264 It is a misconception that there is an evolution vs. creationism debate. Creationism is a religious perception. There are those who want creationism taught in science class as a valid scientific theory. Some of them have even created a idea called Intelligent Design in order to have creationism included in the science curriculum. The courts have ruled Creationism and its new incarnation Intelligent Design can’t be taught in the science classroom. However, “the evolution people” have suggested that creation can be taught in a class such as in Religious Studies.

There are many creation stories. One various for each sect of a religious belief. This is something that those who argue about the non-existent “evolution-vs-creation debate.”

It is a misconception to portray that “the evolution people are foaming at the mouth.” As, stated before creationism isn’t science. It is unfair to teach students something as science when it isn’t. We don’t know what students are going to be, and it is unfair to all students to use valuable teaching time to present a topic that doesn’t improve them the understanding of the subjects. Should teachers teach Spanish grammar during English class? The answer is an obvious no. Other countries teach science only in science class, and these are the students that our students are competing against.

When creations were first used to wage war was when science and technology was used to kill people. That was after the first rock was using to kill a person. That was when the first arrow was used to kill an enemy. That was when the first stone knife was used to stab an adversary. That was when fireworks were first used with a canon in warfare. No one denies that the use of science for war lead to the creation of the atomic bomb and nuclear weapons. This fact is actually taught in socials studies, history and politics.

As shown every topic is taught in the correct subject, and this should be no difference with creationism. However, the courts have ruled that since creationism is a specific religious view that it can’t be taught in school.

As, stated by others evolution is the foundation of modern biology. Over the past 150 year research and discoveries have been made that have shown that the theory of the evolution is correct. “Neither side really cares about what happens to our students.” Is just wrong, and just another creationist argument.

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By: Eugugene Windchy http://www.msu-underground.com/archives/1127/comment-page-1#comment-262 Sun, 21 Mar 2010 07:11:18 +0000 http://www.msu-underground.com/?p=1127#comment-262 If one reads the leaders in the field of evolutionary biology, one comes to realize that the field is in a state of confusion and always has been. See the books Reinventing Darwin by Niles Eldredge and One Long Argument by Ernst Mayr. Mayr in the end decides that Darwinism is a research program. For a lay treatment of evolution that also goes in the politics of it, see my book The End of Darwinism: And How a Flawed and Disastrous Theory Was Stolen and Sold. My book documents the fact that both Mayr and Stephen Gould wished that they could talk to Darwin about religion. Gould, by the way, for thirty years sang Handel’s Messiah and other Christian works as a member of the Boston Cecelia chorus.

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By: Arthur http://www.msu-underground.com/archives/1127/comment-page-1#comment-261 Sun, 21 Mar 2010 03:16:29 +0000 http://www.msu-underground.com/?p=1127#comment-261 “I mean, how exactly does evolutionary theory inform our current ninth-through-twelfth grade science curriculum?

Er… what?

Are you serious? Evolution is the fundamental Theory of Biology. Not to mention fields like medicine and biochemistry.

Good grief…

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By: Ediacaran http://www.msu-underground.com/archives/1127/comment-page-1#comment-260 Sun, 21 Mar 2010 00:16:57 +0000 http://www.msu-underground.com/?p=1127#comment-260 Evan writes: “I mean, how exactly does evolutionary theory inform our current ninth-through-twelfth grade science curriculum?
Does it have any bearing whatsoever on chemistry? Physics? Baking soda volcanoes? By the same token, let’s face it, studying creationism likely leads into studying theology, which also has no place in public school.
As a future teacher, I’m all about prompting our students to think critically, but not over issues so trivial and useless when compared to the rest of the curriculum.”

Evolution is the basis for biology. As such, it certainly has a bearing on chemistry, and vice versa.

Even those people who never take a class in biology have a stake in ensuring that biology is taught accurately, since it leads to medical advances. Do you get flu shots? Those who develop the vaccines rely on an understanding of evolution to develop each year’s new batch. Do you or your loved ones take any medicines? Those are tested using protocols that rely on evolution. Many treatments or cures for diseases found using animal models that depend directly on the evolutionary relationship between humans and other animals. I find such medical advances to be neither trivial nor useless.

Creationism is not quite as relatively benign as merely diverting the misled into theological studies. Creationism is anti-science, contradicting not only biology, but physics, chemistry, paleontology, archaeology, geology, bioinformatics, and a host of other sciences. Most high school students grow up and vote, and those indoctrinated into creationism who never shake free of its shackles end up voting for politicians who actively try to eliminate or discourage the teaching of evolution and other aspects of science that violate their religious dogmas (such as eliminating references to the Earth’s age of 4 1/2 billion years and the universe’s age of nearly 13 billion years from Physics and Earth Science textbooks). The United States enjoys several economic advantages due to its leadership in the sciences and applied science, including medicine, but creationism undermines science education.

If you want to help eliminate the benefits of science in the U.S, keep treating the foundation of biology as “trivial and useless”.

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By: ARL http://www.msu-underground.com/archives/1127/comment-page-1#comment-259 Sat, 20 Mar 2010 20:13:10 +0000 http://www.msu-underground.com/?p=1127#comment-259 You asked:
“I mean, how exactly does evolutionary theory inform our current ninth-through-twelfth grade science curriculum?”

Answer: (from here: http://ncse.com/evolution/why-teach-evolution)

“First, it is the fundamental, unifying theory that underlies all the life sciences. It has formed the basis of productive and active research for over 140 years and continues to do so. This is why evolution is universally accepted among professional biology researchers.

The second reason is that science education standards emphasize learning the process of science and especially scientific inquiry. The first step in this process is to develop testable questions that can be answered by scientific investigation. These questions are guided by scientific theories and their answers continue to show the value of biological evolution as a theory for forming useful, answerable questions in biology.”

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